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	<title>Comments on: Is it all a lie?</title>
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	<link>http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/</link>
	<description>Full-Time Working Mom/Part-Time Evening Law Student</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 07:13:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Aleda</title>
		<link>http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3922</link>
		<dc:creator>Aleda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 03:59:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3922</guid>
		<description>Hi all, I just came upon this site and felt the urge to respond. I'm not only the mother of three, I am the grandmother of two. I decided to go back to school when my youngest was in 10th grade. I had to start at the bottom, meaning I didn't graduate with my BA until May 2005. I was able to maintain a decent GPA in undergrad and I went to a really great University on full scholarship. 

I'm a 3L in an "ok" NY law school. However, due to a series of family traumas, my GPA is pretty low. But on the upside of things have managed to land some pretty impressive internships with NGOs in Manhattan and in Asia. I got those jobs by sending my resume, not hearing anything, resending the resume with a flowery cover letter, calling to make sure they received my resume, etc. Finally, I got an interview and because they were impressed with my tenacity, personality, resume (the whole package) I was hired. I also received a fellowship with that low GPA and was selected to represent my school for a semester abroad in a new international program. (I was one of only two students chosen). I have also worked for an NGO during the school year. I have been able to beef up my resume and collect some awesome recommendations. I would continue to work for the NGO I am with now but there is just no funding in their budget for another staff attorney. So great things can be accomplished with a lower GPA.

I'm not really dismayed about employment prospects. I have many attorney friends who have graduated from top schools, bottom school, within the to 10% and the bottom 10%. All are currently gainfully employed. (However a couple of them aren't completely satisfied with the type of law they are practicing). Some started their own firms with classmates, other are in small, medium, and large firms while others are in government or NGO positions. 

Coming out of school with lower grades sucks but you will have your JD and you will get a job. Networking is certainly the way to go. Everyone cannot be at the top of their class. You would be surprised how many attorneys I know who had fantastic large firm jobs out of school but who only lasted in that atmosphere about a year. It's not for everyone. I don't know where I will end up (hopefully in the arena of human rights) but the job will come. 

Good luck to all of us!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi all, I just came upon this site and felt the urge to respond. I&#8217;m not only the mother of three, I am the grandmother of two. I decided to go back to school when my youngest was in 10th grade. I had to start at the bottom, meaning I didn&#8217;t graduate with my BA until May 2005. I was able to maintain a decent GPA in undergrad and I went to a really great University on full scholarship. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m a 3L in an &#8220;ok&#8221; NY law school. However, due to a series of family traumas, my GPA is pretty low. But on the upside of things have managed to land some pretty impressive internships with NGOs in Manhattan and in Asia. I got those jobs by sending my resume, not hearing anything, resending the resume with a flowery cover letter, calling to make sure they received my resume, etc. Finally, I got an interview and because they were impressed with my tenacity, personality, resume (the whole package) I was hired. I also received a fellowship with that low GPA and was selected to represent my school for a semester abroad in a new international program. (I was one of only two students chosen). I have also worked for an NGO during the school year. I have been able to beef up my resume and collect some awesome recommendations. I would continue to work for the NGO I am with now but there is just no funding in their budget for another staff attorney. So great things can be accomplished with a lower GPA.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not really dismayed about employment prospects. I have many attorney friends who have graduated from top schools, bottom school, within the to 10% and the bottom 10%. All are currently gainfully employed. (However a couple of them aren&#8217;t completely satisfied with the type of law they are practicing). Some started their own firms with classmates, other are in small, medium, and large firms while others are in government or NGO positions. </p>
<p>Coming out of school with lower grades sucks but you will have your JD and you will get a job. Networking is certainly the way to go. Everyone cannot be at the top of their class. You would be surprised how many attorneys I know who had fantastic large firm jobs out of school but who only lasted in that atmosphere about a year. It&#8217;s not for everyone. I don&#8217;t know where I will end up (hopefully in the arena of human rights) but the job will come. </p>
<p>Good luck to all of us!</p>
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		<title>By: Dakota</title>
		<link>http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3739</link>
		<dc:creator>Dakota</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:35:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3739</guid>
		<description>Thanks PTLAWMOM for posting this question, and to all who have responded.  Great advice for those of us still in school. I am happy to say I started networking in my first year, and while my list is not as impressive as some, it exists.  I have even received one call to ask me if I wanted to apply for a job my contact thought I'd like.  (Pay was too low so I couldn't accept, but still nice to be asked.)  We have to believe we can do this.....others before us have and other that follow us will....but all the advice on how to do it right is wonderful!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks PTLAWMOM for posting this question, and to all who have responded.  Great advice for those of us still in school. I am happy to say I started networking in my first year, and while my list is not as impressive as some, it exists.  I have even received one call to ask me if I wanted to apply for a job my contact thought I&#8217;d like.  (Pay was too low so I couldn&#8217;t accept, but still nice to be asked.)  We have to believe we can do this&#8230;..others before us have and other that follow us will&#8230;.but all the advice on how to do it right is wonderful!</p>
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		<title>By: DBN</title>
		<link>http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3470</link>
		<dc:creator>DBN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 02:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3470</guid>
		<description>I just came in on this post... but are you in larger city?  Probably have better luck in a small town, but my method was to clerk at firms with less requirements gradewise but well connected partners.  That way I met a lot of people, did a lot of networking, went to a lot of functions.  Join some clubs, keep your resume circulating.... that type of thing.  Concentrate on your high points and let the rest follow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just came in on this post&#8230; but are you in larger city?  Probably have better luck in a small town, but my method was to clerk at firms with less requirements gradewise but well connected partners.  That way I met a lot of people, did a lot of networking, went to a lot of functions.  Join some clubs, keep your resume circulating&#8230;. that type of thing.  Concentrate on your high points and let the rest follow.</p>
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		<title>By: Life At the Bar Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Blawg Review #142: Letter to a new lawyer</title>
		<link>http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3454</link>
		<dc:creator>Life At the Bar Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Blawg Review #142: Letter to a new lawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 03:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3454</guid>
		<description>[...] for the same things then you realize. Or you may be a Mediator in the Making or want to be a PT Law Mom or you can be the Black Sheep of Philly Contract Attorneys discussing unionization of contract [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] for the same things then you realize. Or you may be a Mediator in the Making or want to be a PT Law Mom or you can be the Black Sheep of Philly Contract Attorneys discussing unionization of contract [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jaime</title>
		<link>http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3450</link>
		<dc:creator>jaime</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3450</guid>
		<description>Best advice ever: By the time you need a network, it will be too late to develop one. Develop that network NOW while you are in school. I know you are stressed, I know you have work to do, but when you are out of school and not working you will be stressed and have job hunting to do.  I am a licensed attorney who thought once I got out of school and took the bar, I could focus my attention on finding a job then.  I did pass the bar, and it is January and I am still looking for work. I have been networking since September, and my efforts did not really bear fruit until December or so. (i.e. I had finally met the people in positions that could actually help me).  If I had been networking in my last year, I may have seen fruitful efforts paying off back in September or even have a job lined up. Just because you meet one person who doesn't work out well does not mean your other networking contacts won't work out well either.  While I find the "Guerilla" book slightly annoying, it does have practical, useful advice. She hammers home the point the most important thing you can do is networking because when it comes right down to it, people hire people they like.
Hope this helps</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Best advice ever: By the time you need a network, it will be too late to develop one. Develop that network NOW while you are in school. I know you are stressed, I know you have work to do, but when you are out of school and not working you will be stressed and have job hunting to do.  I am a licensed attorney who thought once I got out of school and took the bar, I could focus my attention on finding a job then.  I did pass the bar, and it is January and I am still looking for work. I have been networking since September, and my efforts did not really bear fruit until December or so. (i.e. I had finally met the people in positions that could actually help me).  If I had been networking in my last year, I may have seen fruitful efforts paying off back in September or even have a job lined up. Just because you meet one person who doesn&#8217;t work out well does not mean your other networking contacts won&#8217;t work out well either.  While I find the &#8220;Guerilla&#8221; book slightly annoying, it does have practical, useful advice. She hammers home the point the most important thing you can do is networking because when it comes right down to it, people hire people they like.<br />
Hope this helps</p>
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		<title>By: Meg</title>
		<link>http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3400</link>
		<dc:creator>Meg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3400</guid>
		<description>I must respectfully disagree with Larry.  While the legal profession is not the hellhole that some online forums would have us all believe, it is certainly not easy by a long shot to get an entry-level attorney job after you graduate (if you don't already have one lined up) - and that includes those that pay less than $40K/year.  I live in a city where temp jobs are plentiful, but the work is boring and doesn't enhance your skill set at all.  If you are outside this city (and New York, I believe), the chances of finding meaningful employment as a long-term temp work are hundreds of times worse.  Of course, no one ever went to law school thinking they'd make a living off doing document review, but some do indeed.  The frightening part is that some people who work with me went to much higher ranked schools than mine, and in the area (George Washington, American, Washington and Lee, etc), and are still having as much trouble as I am finding full-time, meaningful employment.

The good news is this: you are still in school, and while in school, employers will adore you.  This is for several reasons, but most often it's because students are willing to work for cheaper wages than licensed attorneys (we do have to pay our loans, after all).  So look for internships and fellowships and volunteer positions if you have to at firms where you can see yourself working after law school.  You want to do immigration law, so send your resume to every immigration law firm you can find.  A part-time student in my class (graduated after me by a semester) ended up working one summer at a law firm downtown and now has a firm offer there after graduation, and I know her grades weren't the best.  I had two offers of employment post-graduation from the two places I clerked for, but chose to turn them down to move back to the city I loved.  But my school's reputation was largely regional (85% of graduates stay in the city and suburbs), so I don't have the opportunity to network with alumni here as well.  I'm struggling with the alumni network of my graduate program, because it wasn't law related, and I will likely end up taking a non-lawyer position in my first graduate school field.

Long story short: if you are at a lower-ranked school and fall below the median class rank, you can start your own practice (a viable and respectable option, but it will take years to become profitable), or you can network your butt off while in law school and make connections to people who know your work so well that they will offer you a job after graduation.  It's not easy, but at least you are aware of the reality of the situation now, and not post-graduation.  Good luck!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must respectfully disagree with Larry.  While the legal profession is not the hellhole that some online forums would have us all believe, it is certainly not easy by a long shot to get an entry-level attorney job after you graduate (if you don&#8217;t already have one lined up) - and that includes those that pay less than $40K/year.  I live in a city where temp jobs are plentiful, but the work is boring and doesn&#8217;t enhance your skill set at all.  If you are outside this city (and New York, I believe), the chances of finding meaningful employment as a long-term temp work are hundreds of times worse.  Of course, no one ever went to law school thinking they&#8217;d make a living off doing document review, but some do indeed.  The frightening part is that some people who work with me went to much higher ranked schools than mine, and in the area (George Washington, American, Washington and Lee, etc), and are still having as much trouble as I am finding full-time, meaningful employment.</p>
<p>The good news is this: you are still in school, and while in school, employers will adore you.  This is for several reasons, but most often it&#8217;s because students are willing to work for cheaper wages than licensed attorneys (we do have to pay our loans, after all).  So look for internships and fellowships and volunteer positions if you have to at firms where you can see yourself working after law school.  You want to do immigration law, so send your resume to every immigration law firm you can find.  A part-time student in my class (graduated after me by a semester) ended up working one summer at a law firm downtown and now has a firm offer there after graduation, and I know her grades weren&#8217;t the best.  I had two offers of employment post-graduation from the two places I clerked for, but chose to turn them down to move back to the city I loved.  But my school&#8217;s reputation was largely regional (85% of graduates stay in the city and suburbs), so I don&#8217;t have the opportunity to network with alumni here as well.  I&#8217;m struggling with the alumni network of my graduate program, because it wasn&#8217;t law related, and I will likely end up taking a non-lawyer position in my first graduate school field.</p>
<p>Long story short: if you are at a lower-ranked school and fall below the median class rank, you can start your own practice (a viable and respectable option, but it will take years to become profitable), or you can network your butt off while in law school and make connections to people who know your work so well that they will offer you a job after graduation.  It&#8217;s not easy, but at least you are aware of the reality of the situation now, and not post-graduation.  Good luck!</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3395</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:55:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3395</guid>
		<description>I recently posted about this subject on my website as well.  One thing you must remember is that for every 1 person in the top 10% of the class there are 9 people in the other 90% :!:   To say that only 1 out of 9 lawyers in this country do well is absurd.  It is equally absurd to think that there will not be an abundance of clients for the 90% of lawyers in America that did NOT graduate in the top 10% of the class.

People sometimes confuse being in the top 10% of your class at law school with being a great lawyer.  This is simply not true.  While some of the top 10% may be great lawyers, it is not solely because of their class rank.  All being in the top 10% signifies is that you are a great *law student*.  There is much more than academia to being a great lawyer.

So if your only goal is to be a great law student then by all means rest on you laurels if you are in the top 10%.  But if your main goal is to be a great lawyer then continue striving to do your best in school, because this will prepare you to really shine when you are finally practicing.  If you are good with people and have a nice personality clients will not care what your rank was.  Of course they will care if you have no idea what you are doing  :wink:</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently posted about this subject on my website as well.  One thing you must remember is that for every 1 person in the top 10% of the class there are 9 people in the other 90% <img src='http://ptlawmom.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_exclaim.gif' alt=':!:' class='wp-smiley' />   To say that only 1 out of 9 lawyers in this country do well is absurd.  It is equally absurd to think that there will not be an abundance of clients for the 90% of lawyers in America that did NOT graduate in the top 10% of the class.</p>
<p>People sometimes confuse being in the top 10% of your class at law school with being a great lawyer.  This is simply not true.  While some of the top 10% may be great lawyers, it is not solely because of their class rank.  All being in the top 10% signifies is that you are a great *law student*.  There is much more than academia to being a great lawyer.</p>
<p>So if your only goal is to be a great law student then by all means rest on you laurels if you are in the top 10%.  But if your main goal is to be a great lawyer then continue striving to do your best in school, because this will prepare you to really shine when you are finally practicing.  If you are good with people and have a nice personality clients will not care what your rank was.  Of course they will care if you have no idea what you are doing  <img src='http://ptlawmom.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=':wink:' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Cee</title>
		<link>http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3373</link>
		<dc:creator>Cee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3373</guid>
		<description>I'm having the same fears about finding employment. I think most law students, like myself, are used to getting all A's and some B's in their undergrad school. It's been so hard for me to get used to C's! 

I think the most helpful thing I am doing right now for my career goals is working as an intern at a small law firm. The firm has only two attorneys and I kind of knew one of them from my previous job. No one I talk to has ever heard of the firm, but since it is small, I get hands-on involvement in almost everything. I'm just going to hang onto this job and hope building my skills will get me a job that I like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m having the same fears about finding employment. I think most law students, like myself, are used to getting all A&#8217;s and some B&#8217;s in their undergrad school. It&#8217;s been so hard for me to get used to C&#8217;s! </p>
<p>I think the most helpful thing I am doing right now for my career goals is working as an intern at a small law firm. The firm has only two attorneys and I kind of knew one of them from my previous job. No one I talk to has ever heard of the firm, but since it is small, I get hands-on involvement in almost everything. I&#8217;m just going to hang onto this job and hope building my skills will get me a job that I like.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristina</title>
		<link>http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3367</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 02:02:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3367</guid>
		<description>Those stats about employment nine months after graduation are bunk. They've found out that most schools treat a non-response to those surveys as being in the employed category (why I don't know... it makes no statistic sense). Additionally the $140K salaries of the top 10-20% will throw off the median salary. There are plenty of people making $40K per year with a law degree. These are harsh truths, but I wish I knew them in 1L instead of post-graduation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those stats about employment nine months after graduation are bunk. They&#8217;ve found out that most schools treat a non-response to those surveys as being in the employed category (why I don&#8217;t know&#8230; it makes no statistic sense). Additionally the $140K salaries of the top 10-20% will throw off the median salary. There are plenty of people making $40K per year with a law degree. These are harsh truths, but I wish I knew them in 1L instead of post-graduation.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan</title>
		<link>http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3363</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:02:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ptlawmom.com/2008/01/08/is-it-all-a-lie/#comment-3363</guid>
		<description>As we mentioned by others above, your contacts are really important. I suggest networking as much as possible. One avenue of networking that I think is really untapped by law students is your local bar association. For example, in Illinois our state bar association (we are a voluntary bar) has student memberships for relatively inexpensive sums. It also has great benefits allowing you to attend many functions for free or at a greatly reduced cost.

This is a great way to meet practitioners. I have met some great people by serving on bar association committees and attending events. I wished that I had started doing this when I was in law school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As we mentioned by others above, your contacts are really important. I suggest networking as much as possible. One avenue of networking that I think is really untapped by law students is your local bar association. For example, in Illinois our state bar association (we are a voluntary bar) has student memberships for relatively inexpensive sums. It also has great benefits allowing you to attend many functions for free or at a greatly reduced cost.</p>
<p>This is a great way to meet practitioners. I have met some great people by serving on bar association committees and attending events. I wished that I had started doing this when I was in law school.</p>
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